Curse

Beta Ray Bill · Jul 03, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

If this topic has been posted before, please forgive me. I did a search and couldn't find anything relevant in a reasonable amount of time, so I decided to post my own topic. A link to previous threads would be much appreciated.

Now for the subject matter:

I've often looked at the skill balance in GW as similar to Magic: the Gathering. I've only played M:tG a little, but I'm familiar with the card concepts and the balance issues that they strive for. Wizards of the Coast has done a great job keeping the game balanced, entertaining and fresh after 20-30 expansions. The tricky part comes in revamping old card ideas for expanded rules, play mechanics, strategies, artwork, etc. Often, older ideas or vague card powers/descriptions get the boot from tournament play through the "banned" list. It's an effective way to promote newer, more specific cards and sell new expansion packs. It also helps rebalance the game in light of other card combos and older ineffective cards and rules.

I have some serious misgivings about how ANet will accomplish the addition of new skills in an expansion without bringing serious imbalance to the current game (Chapter 1) and keeping to their "no extra fees" model. If they have to nerf or buff certain skills in Chap 1 to rebalance them to fit with the expansion, it will seriously effect the competitive aspect of the game. It would also require everyone to rethink their character builds.

I'd like some sort of response from ArenaNet ultimately. I love the game so far (just a couple missions away from ascension), and play GW exclusively when I have the option. I think it's a fun, engaging game and one of my best entertainment purchases in a long time. I'd just like to know how hard I should save for the expansion next year.

Responses?

arnansnow · Jul 03, 2005, 07:14 PM // 19:14

They balance skills by having people use them, and if the skill is unbalanced then people will complain in the forums, which Anet checks.

Scissors Lizard beats Paper Tiger

. (magic the gathering cards)

Spooky · Jul 03, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

The balance of skills in future expansions - not just amongst each other, but with the game as a whole - is something that will doubtless recieve as much rigorous testing before ever seeing the light of day, as was the case with chapter 1.

Of course, once something moves into the retail phase, there's always the potential for unexpected imbalances or abuses to pop up, which is why these and other forums are watched for feedback. There have been quite a few changes made to skills from retail until now, as balance is pretty much an ongoing responsibility.

Since it has been stated quite a few times that players will not be required to purchase the expansions to remain competitive, I would assume that all new skills would be balanced against the originals - if something is found to be particularly out of line, then the new skill would be the one tweaked, not the older. That's not official, mind you - just call it educated extrapolation.

KaPe · Jul 03, 2005, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Before they add new skills, they better first make current ones *used*. I mean, just look at Elementalists, Air is pretty much the sphere of choice on PvP and fire on PvE. Of course, this is not necessarily because they are OP, but 2 others certainly lack something. Same with Monks Smites - allthough this is probably more due to a fact that people expect monks to heal/protect and nothing else. Warrios - hammers. Adding new skills would only disturb the balance further, unless there would be some overpowered skills in other trees - which is bad way of "improving" such tree.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 03, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaPe

Before they add new skills, they better first make current ones *used*. I mean, just look at Elementalists, Air is pretty much the sphere of choice on PvP and fire on PvE. Of course, this is not necessarily because they are OP, but 2 others certainly lack something. Same with Monks Smites - allthough this is probably more due to a fact that people expect monks to heal/protect and nothing else. Warrios - hammers. Adding new skills would only disturb the balance further, unless there would be some overpowered skills in other trees - which is bad way of "improving" such tree.

++++++++++++

Couldn´t agree more!!!

Jul 03, 2005, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Water and Earth are used mostly by the better teams. What goes on in Tombs doesn't necessarily represent the best picture of what are good and bad skills.

1004pyro · Jul 03, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

if you read a skill you think its bad.
just keep all skills in mind because some skills mighte be more powerfull then you think.

arnansnow · Jul 03, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1004pyro

if you read a skill you think its bad.
just keep all skills in mind because some skills mighte be more powerfull then you think.

Otyugh's Cry, Is it more powerful than I think it is? As I think it is horrible.

Aniewiel · Jul 03, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

I do agree though that with the plethora of skills available to all classes (assuming that most people are dual-classed), there are a LOT that are NEVER used. ANet needs to cull through the skills---maybe run some sort of program tracking server(s) wide skill use and such. Get rid of unused skills and add new ones with expansions and/or just adding them in patches.

Aziz · Jul 03, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

for the record, my guild has used some form of smiting very sucessfully alot and water and earth are the better lines for eles imo, hammer wars are very good for what they are for and i see them used alot

dargon · Jul 03, 2005, 11:59 PM // 23:59

For otyughs cry. Imagine an all ranger team with pets. For 5 mana, all those pets just got a +20 armor boost and they are all hitting the same target.

Doctor Anomalo · Jul 04, 2005, 03:10 AM // 03:10

mtg is different in that people are not invested so much in the colors. if white is underpowered, people will just happily play the other colors. in guild wars, there is more roleplaying. people will play ranger (for example) even if it is underpowered because of the flavor. then they will complain that ranger sucks.

Rieselle · Jul 04, 2005, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Heheh, I think when they release the expansion they should UAS the normal game skills for everyone :P

theclam · Jul 04, 2005, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Since skills can be balanced on the fly, this will be less of a problem than in Magic.

Beta Ray Bill · Jul 04, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

I do agree though that with the plethora of skills available to all classes (assuming that most people are dual-classed), there are a LOT that are NEVER used. ANet needs to cull through the skills---maybe run some sort of program tracking server(s) wide skill use and such. Get rid of unused skills and add new ones with expansions and/or just adding them in patches.

This is precisely the type of modification that I fear, because someone somewhere is building a successful character around rarely used skills and finding a niche they enjoy playing. Even the most "useless" skills to the majority of players are critical to a player who knows how to use them effectively.

I currently play a fire/air ele, just recently adding air to the mix. Here, now, I read that the elementalists in the Tombs focus mostly on water and earth. I've dabbled in earth, but I've never touched water. Just goes to show that all the skills are useful to those who know how to use them.

This is what I'm looking at in anticipation for Chapter 2. I don't want to see current skills nerfed or buffed; I'm just mainly concerned to see new skills fold evenly into the mix.

Morganas · Jul 04, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

I do agree though that with the plethora of skills available to all classes (assuming that most people are dual-classed), there are a LOT that are NEVER used. ANet needs to cull through the skills---maybe run some sort of program tracking server(s) wide skill use and such. Get rid of unused skills and add new ones with expansions and/or just adding them in patches.

Maybe we should filter out less used class/attribute combinations too. We really only need w/mo's, lightening elementalists, and monks.

Great Idea!

arnansnow · Jul 04, 2005, 03:07 PM // 15:07

There is no ability that no one uses (even that signet that was taken out was used, and otyugh's cry which people use for laughs or for curiosity).

Aniewiel · Jul 04, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Maybe we should filter out less used class/attribute combinations too. We really only need w/mo's, lightening elementalists, and monks.

Great Idea!

LOL! OK...

Beta Ray Bill · Jul 04, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky

Since it has been stated quite a few times that players will not be required to purchase the expansions to remain competitive, I would assume that all new skills would be balanced against the originals - if something is found to be particularly out of line, then the new skill would be the one tweaked, not the older. That's not official, mind you - just call it educated extrapolation.

This leads me to wonder just how far ANet can go with expansions. Realistically, I can see 4-5 expansions at the most (which may be enough considering how quickly technological advancement can change gaming venues and player interest).

The only way WotC have been able to continue pumping out the expansions for M:tG is by banning or rewriting older cards to fit with newer cards, gameplay mechanics, etc. This marketing technique almost requires a player to buy new cards to keep up and stay competitive in tournament play, something ANet has emphatically denounced as part of their corporate strategy for GW.

Epinephrine · Jul 04, 2005, 04:00 PM // 16:00

It is an interesting point - the fact is that MtG does junk older sets - but there are many problems with the comparison between MtG and GW.

In MtG when a card is unbalanced it gets added to a restricted or banned list; in GW they tweak it back to within spec. They can rewrite all the "cards" in GW, so it doesn't require a banned list.

In MtG they need to keep selling cards, and part of that push results in more powerful cards with each generation - they aren't immediately better, but newer cards have bigger effects than older ones most of the time, with the exception of the restricted cards etc... - Anet gets around the forced upping of card power by offering further PvE with each pack.

I do see it as being difficult to get away from the current archetypes, but we'll see how they do with that. I have confidence in them in that regard, and if the new skills are balanced against the old ones things will be fine.